[00:00:13] <Voight_> I have learnt it
[00:00:18] <Voight_> not all of it
[00:00:24] <MatthiasM> and with that I don't just mean the language elements itself
[00:00:43] <MatthiasM> but also how to write classes, how to organize code etc
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[01:01:39] <MatthiasM> monty_hall: http://imgur.com/gallery/BWycj :)
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[01:14:49] <nbf> diablo 3 hacked
[01:15:59] <kappaOne> well Blizzard need a cover story :)
[01:16:33] <kappaOne> one of the most incompetent high profile game launches
[01:16:35] <nbf> haha
[01:16:52] <nbf> its funny because whos bigger than blizzard? I can't think of anyone
[01:16:58] <nbf> you'd think they'd have their act together by now
[01:19:45] <monty_hall> MatthiasM: heh, weeping angel
[01:19:46] <l3eta> Well they're too busy with WoW
[01:20:20] <nbf> I thought WoW was dying
[01:20:46] <l3eta> It is some what but they put thing out where if you played before you get like a free level 80 or some shit
[01:20:56] <l3eta> put a*
[01:21:45] <nbf> I only played wow for a few days, I'm not into those games
[01:21:58] <nbf> it's like diablo but without the gratifying combat
[01:22:03] <l3eta> I only played ifor about 80 hours lol
[01:22:13] <l3eta> Yea pretty much lol
[01:22:38] <l3eta> Quite a few of my friends play it.
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[01:32:58] <ra4king> im back!
[01:33:00] <ra4king> did anyone miss me?
[01:33:03] <ra4king> i know you did :)
[01:34:09] <MiJyn> oh yes, we were just waiting and waiting
[01:34:39] <ra4king> MiJyn: i knew it!
[01:34:41] <ra4king> :P
[01:34:49] <l3eta> what MiJyn with a less bit of joy.
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[01:35:17] <ra4king> well anyway
[01:35:23] <ra4king> went to go see Wrath of the Titans 3D
[01:35:25] <ra4king> terrible movie
[01:35:33] <ra4king> then went to McDonalds for the first time in YEARS!
[01:35:41] <ra4king> I am surprised to say I enjoyed the Angus Deluxe
[01:35:42] <MiJyn> it's a bad movie?
[01:35:45] <ra4king> terrible
[01:35:49] <ra4king> story is terrible
[01:35:49] <MiJyn> what was the problem?
[01:35:50] <ra4king> acting is meh
[01:35:51] <MiJyn> oh
[01:35:52] <MiJyn> XD
[01:35:55] <ra4king> graphically amazing though
[01:36:05] <ra4king> as usual these days with these kinds of movies
[01:36:21] <l3eta> I gotta say this, I thought this was a gaming library channel not a "Story telling channel"...
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[01:52:39] <nbf> stay a while
[01:52:41] <nbf> and listen
[01:52:44] <ra4king> l3eta: you obviously haven't been here a while ;)
[01:52:53] <ra4king> IRC is not a place to be formal 24/7
[01:53:06] <ra4king> channels go off-topic all the time
[01:53:08] <l3eta> Glad you decided to comment with more useless info.
[01:53:15] <ra4king> as long as we go back to topic (and we do), then we're fine
[01:54:01] <l3eta> Well, I doubt anyone really cares about if you enjoyed mcd's bro.
[01:54:07] <lwjglbot> nightly: LWJGL-linux32 #1793 (stable) <http://www.newdawnsoftware.com/hudson/job/LWJGL-linux32/1793/> || LWJGL-linux64 #1788 (stable) <http://www.newdawnsoftware.com/hudson/job/LWJGL-linux64/1788/> || LWJGL-opensolaris #1790 (stable) <http://www.newdawnsoftware.com/hudson/job/LWJGL-opensolaris/1790/> || LWJGL-win32 #1768 (stable) <http://www.newdawnsoftware.com/hudson/job/LWJGL-win32/1768/> || LWJGL-win64 #1769 (stable) <http://www.newdawnsoftware.com/hudson/job/LWJGL-win64/1769/>
[01:54:48] <ra4king> WTF! http://www.java-gaming.org/index.php/topic,26494.new.html#new
[01:55:03] <ra4king> l3eta: why thank you, i didn't know ;)
[01:55:55] <monty_hall> was it decious?
[01:56:01] <ra4king> monty_hall: decious?
[01:56:09] <l3eta> Mcd's bro.
[01:56:11] <l3eta> Was it good?
[01:56:23] <ra4king> hehe delicious* :P why yes
[01:56:45] <ra4king> having not been to mcd in 4-5 years ..... i am surprised to say I liked it
[01:56:52] <l3eta> It's fast food..
[01:56:59] <ra4king> nah I hated mcd
[01:57:01] <l3eta> It's meant to taste good.
[01:57:10] <l3eta> Makes you want more.
[01:57:39] <monty_hall> yes... delicious... tell us more...
[01:58:07] <ra4king> nah...no more for another 4-5 years
[01:58:13] <ra4king> don't want to get fat (ter)
[01:58:13] <monty_hall> On a scale of 0 to 10?with 0 representing zero possibility and 10 representing metaphysical certitude?what is the chance of you purchasing it again?
[01:58:29] <ra4king> 10.....in 4-5 years :)
[01:58:52] <ra4king> hehe read my reply: http://www.java-gaming.org/index.php/topic,26494.new.html#new
[01:58:58] <l3eta> I love being a skinny kid.
[01:59:04] <l3eta> Never gain anything
[01:59:33] <MatthiasM> monty_hall: troll bait was successful :)
[01:59:34] <ra4king> im slightly overweight :(
[01:59:39] <ra4king> monty_hall: troll bait?
[01:59:41] <ra4king> oh noes!
[01:59:43] <l3eta> So stop talking to us
[01:59:57] <l3eta> And go run around the block you sure like to talk so I'd assume that you have some energy
[02:00:13] <MatthiasM> ra4king: you know that responding to troll bost results in bans?
[02:00:17] <MatthiasM> *posts
[02:00:33] <ra4king> that post is troll bait?
[02:00:39] <l3eta> Lolz
[02:00:39] <MatthiasM> sure it is
[02:00:42] <ra4king> in the spoiler he mentions he needs help
[02:00:44] <ra4king> :/
[02:00:59] <l3eta> General Discussions >
[02:01:27] <ra4king> hmm he mentions an beginning of a game, an easter egg, and help
[02:01:33] <MatthiasM> it's like the "I have X zillion dollars I want to give you - but for that you first need to send me 100 dollars to make a bank account" :)
[02:01:36] <l3eta> I mean who Base64's a subject?
[02:01:51] <ra4king> n00bs
[02:02:02] <MatthiasM> l3eta: broken email agents (eg Microshit Outlook)
[02:02:12] <l3eta> I guess that makes sense lol
[02:02:20] <ra4king> I got "Pass the <insert condiment item here>"
[02:02:23] <ra4king> interesting...
[02:03:14] <ra4king> TROOLLLLL!
[02:03:17] <ra4king> IN THE DUNGEONS!
[02:03:27] <l3eta> You mean basements?
[02:03:35] <ra4king> http://maggiecakes.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/troll-in-the-dungeon.jpg
[02:03:38] <ra4king> that too!
[02:03:49] <MatthiasM> ra4king: quick - go down there and make sure it really is a troll
[02:03:57] * ra4king puts on suit of armore
[02:03:59] <l3eta> It might have candy
[02:04:10] <MatthiasM> (once he is in the cellar we fill it with quick concrete)
[02:04:21] <ra4king> oh cool this is what i got on google images for "troll in dungeon": http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CPzimJLk31o/Tbm7tBCSkzI/AAAAAAAAIAs/WK2Kcun7iGY/s1600/nicki+minaj+beauty.bmp NSFW
[02:04:24] * l3eta shouts good idea!
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[02:05:47] <ra4king> badlogic: o/
[02:08:08] <ra4king> grr when did kappaOne leave? :/
[02:08:30] <ra4king> well...some BF3 time...i suppose :/
[02:09:05] <l3eta> [16:35:pm] * kappaOne (~computer at 93-97-4-169 dot zone5.bethere.co.uk) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[02:09:37] <ra4king> yeah already found that
[02:09:47] <ra4king> had something a tad bit important to tell him
[02:10:15] <ra4king> l3eta: btw what about that keyboard bug fix?
[02:10:18] <ra4king> no word on that yet?
[02:10:33] <ra4king> my patch works on Windows and Linux, so I think it's safe to assume it works on Mac
[02:11:08] <l3eta> I don't even care about it anymore lol
[02:11:24] <l3eta> Since it's already been posted
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[02:21:35] <ra4king> l3eta: but they haven't done anything about it :/
[02:21:47] <ra4king> hmm ill tell kappaOne about the patch once i talk to him too
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[02:22:18] <juank_prada> hello guys
[02:22:52] <ra4king> juank_prada: o/
[02:23:07] <juank_prada> hi ra4king
[02:23:15] <juank_prada> hey I have a question...
[02:23:31] <juank_prada> right now Im think on how to implement an efficient pathfinding system for my game
[02:23:59] <juank_prada> i have A* but im thinking that it might be overkill for my game... (im not sure about that)
[02:24:13] <lwjglbot> nightly: LWJGL #1671 (stable) <http://www.newdawnsoftware.com/hudson/job/LWJGL/1671/> || LWJGL-OSX #1778 (stable) <http://www.newdawnsoftware.com/hudson/job/LWJGL-OSX/1778/>
[02:25:17] <juank_prada> Im doing a Zelda/Seiken Densetsu kind of game so... is it really worth it to have A*...or i could do just fine doing amix between random movement, line of sight and maybe breadcrumbs?
[02:25:45] <juank_prada> that is for enemies finding the player of course
[02:26:36] <juank_prada> specially knowing that I will probablly have 10 or more enemies on screen at the same time
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[02:28:32] <lexn82> has anyone tried splitting rendering thread and update thread?
[02:28:57] <nbf> yes
[02:29:05] <lexn82> nbf: do you find it helps?
[02:29:11] <nbf> yes immensely
[02:29:23] <nbf> especially on multicore systems
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[02:29:43] <lexn82> i did some quick tests and it seems to help under high load, but useless otherwise
[02:30:07] <lexn82> im curious how much benefit can be squesed out of it
[02:30:10] <nbf> being able to render and compute simulation stuff at the same time should all the time
[02:30:20] <nbf> *should help all the time
[02:30:42] <lexn82> i guess my tests are too simple
[02:30:53] <nbf> yeah that usually skews things
[02:31:11] <nbf> like "LOL immediate mode is so fast when I render one triangle, it get 5000 fps!"
[02:31:32] <lexn82> yeah...
[02:31:39] <lexn82> not a fair benchmark
[02:31:50] <nbf> how did you split up the work?
[02:32:04] <lexn82> it's a work in progress right now
[02:32:26] <lexn82> i have 2 threads synchronized with wait() and notifyAll()
[02:32:57] <ra4king> lexn82: noooooo
[02:33:13] <lexn82> ra4king: why not?
[02:33:39] <ra4king> wait and notifyAll are nightmares
[02:33:42] <nbf> you want to minimize lock contention, that's where you can easily lose most(or all+) of the benefits
[02:33:54] <ra4king> and also what nbf said
[02:34:01] <ra4king> locking/synchronized breaks everything
[02:34:01] <nbf> wait and notify are fine
[02:34:08] <ra4king> also how would you split rendering and updating threads?
[02:34:13] <ra4king> don't you need some synchronizations?
[02:34:16] <lexn82> yep, i do
[02:34:21] <ra4king> which...don't really bring any benefits
[02:34:24] <lexn82> i have two stages: 1 is rendering and upadting
[02:34:30] <lexn82> 2 is synchronizing the data
[02:34:33] <nbf> don't listen to ra4king, he has no clue how threads work
[02:34:39] <ra4king> ROFL
[02:34:41] <nbf> I barely do, lol
[02:34:48] <ra4king> i have tons of experience with threads
[02:34:52] <nbf> right
[02:34:54] <ra4king> it's just...rendering depends on update
[02:34:58] <ra4king> you can't render until you update
[02:35:02] <lexn82> of course
[02:35:08] <lexn82> but you can redner and update at the same time
[02:35:10] <ra4king> so you would lock the render thread until the update is finished?
[02:35:10] <nbf> saying you're a master at concurrency is the best indicator that you're lying
[02:35:17] <ra4king> im not a master
[02:35:21] <ra4king> im saying i KNOW how to use them
[02:35:23] <lexn82> cool it guys
[02:35:27] <nbf> I really, really doubt that
[02:35:30] <lexn82> im sure we all know some bits
[02:35:36] <lexn82> lets not go into who knows what
[02:35:41] <lexn82> just share your experience
[02:36:14] <ra4king> hmm well since rendering usually takes much longer than updating
[02:36:25] <nbf> the issue with updates and rendering is that updates can/should happen far less than render operations (for most purposes anyway)
[02:36:38] <ra4king> exactly
[02:36:43] <ra4king> so how would multithreading help?
[02:36:46] <ra4king> you can't update and render at the same time
[02:36:47] <lexn82> wait
[02:36:50] <ra4king> that will introduce tons of problems
[02:36:52] <nbf> updates can commonly take longer, they frequently do
[02:36:55] <nbf> but they have a lower frequency
[02:37:08] <nbf> you can update and render at the same time, that's the goal
[02:37:18] <lexn82> oh, not what i had in mind
[02:37:19] <ra4king> nbf: but how?
[02:37:21] <nbf> that's where you get your performance gain
[02:37:29] <lexn82> what i had in mind is this
[02:37:29] <nbf> you buffer your updates
[02:37:34] <ra4king> how would you update and render at the same time? O_o
[02:37:50] <nbf> so you have updates, state1<-->state2, these are already computed
[02:38:10] <nbf> the renderer interpolates between them while the update thread is computing update state 3 (which will eventually be moved to state2)
[02:38:12] <ra4king> OH so you would create separate states for each update which a render accesses?
[02:38:40] <ra4king> the way I envision the data would be only 1 central version which gets updated and gets rendered
[02:38:45] <nbf> so the only lock contention is when you move the newly completed state into place (which is cheap and fast, since you're just changing out a reference)
[02:38:45] <lexn82> nbf: do you have a working example?
[02:38:54] <nbf> I do but it's not publicly available
[02:39:00] <ra4king> the problem with that is if you render data that is being updated, you will have "tearing"
[02:39:13] <nbf> ???
[02:39:24] <ra4king> new and old data being rendered at the same time
[02:39:33] <lexn82> it doesn't work like that
[02:39:37] <nbf> you won't have tearing, you'll have unknown side effects
[02:39:38] <lexn82> you update, then you make a copy
[02:39:54] <lexn82> then you render, and update next frame while rendering
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[02:39:55] <nbf> because you're doing it wrong, because you don't know how threads work ;)
[02:39:58] <juank_prada> so... anyone knows anything about pathfinding who can give me a clueon my issue?
[02:40:01] <ra4king> nbf: yeah i call it "tearing" with quotations because it resembles screen tearing :P
[02:40:16] <ra4king> juank_prada: sorry, ive never delved into pathfinding
[02:40:24] <nbf> no it doesn't, you'll just have randomly hard to debug side effects
[02:40:40] <nbf> you get tearing when you update the display outside of your monitors refresh rate
[02:40:42] <nbf> totally different thing
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[02:40:49] <juank_prada> ra4king its ok, thank you anyway :)
[02:41:00] <lexn82> nbf: i have a different setup
[02:41:04] <ra4king> nbf: screen tearing is when you render while the backbuffer is being flipped
[02:41:19] <ra4king> same concept im trying to convey about updating/rendering at the same time: rendering while the data is being updated
[02:41:35] <lexn82> ra4king: the result is different
[02:42:14] <lexn82> nbf: how do you swap references? do you keep two copy of each value?
[02:42:20] <lexn82> *copies
[02:42:26] <nbf> yep, it's just like a stack type of thing
[02:42:42] <lexn82> i was thinking of physically copying the data
[02:42:49] <nbf> the new update state becomes current, the oldest state falls off
[02:43:05] <nbf> you basically just change the pointers
[02:43:35] <lexn82> nbf: what about the data?
[02:43:45] <lexn82> for example, i have mesh.color = while
[02:43:59] <lexn82> i change mesh.color =green
[02:44:03] <lexn82> so now you swap pointers
[02:44:16] <l3eta> ra4king have you ever thought they didnt give a shit for it?
[02:44:46] <lexn82> nbf: sorry, terrible example
[02:44:55] <nbf> yeah it doesn't matter what the state is really
[02:44:59] <lexn82> nbf: what im getting at is how do you handle the dependednt data
[02:45:06] <l3eta> Or they're completely buys and just waiting for a big release.
[02:45:11] <nbf> just that it's encapsulated some how, so it's easy to change the references
[02:45:23] <ra4king> l3eta: im quite tired of your negative condescending attitude. please leave or be quiet
[02:45:33] <ra4king> nbf: concerning these states, so you would create a new copy of the world and update that?
[02:45:44] <lexn82> nbf: but what if you read the state, then change it, and write it back
[02:45:57] <lexn82> then if you swap references, you will get a different state
[02:46:14] <l3eta> I was giving you what I thought can you not handle a simple line of text bro?
[02:46:14] <nbf> I guess I don't follow, the update/sim thread is never reading data back
[02:46:38] <nbf> once it's done, it moves on to the next state to compute
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[02:46:56] <ra4king> well anyway, i always thought about the idea of updating and rendering in separate threads...but it's way too complicated to care :P
[02:46:57] <nbf> the renderer then renders between the last two states
[02:46:58] <lexn82> nbf: i do not follow
[02:47:06] <ra4king> ill stick with 1 thread for everything
[02:47:35] <l3eta> State based operations?
[02:47:38] <lexn82> nbf: lets say we have a cube, with 1 property: color
[02:47:49] <lexn82> so we changing the color based on time
[02:48:01] <lexn82> cube.color = cube.color*time.total
[02:48:09] <lexn82> so it gets brighter every frame
[02:48:18] <lexn82> or something...
[02:49:48] <lexn82> how wout that work?
[02:49:59] <lexn82> with reference swapping
[02:50:29] <nbf> the update thread computes the new color, when finishes copies it over with the rest of the updates, begins work on next update state
[02:50:43] <nbf> granted with things like rendering, you might not even need that to be in the update logic
[02:51:38] <nbf> if the color is something that can be interpolated, that will be done on the renderer
[02:51:42] <lexn82> ok, so you make a copy then, not just a reference swap?
[02:51:42] <nbf> if not it'll just snap to the new value
[02:51:52] <nbf> well you copy the reference
[02:52:05] <lexn82> so the color will jump between odd and even frames
[02:52:14] <lexn82> depending on what the initial value was
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[02:52:52] <nbf> I have no idea what you mean, it'll be interpolated if it is a property that the renderer knows to interpolate
[02:52:59] <nbf> if not, it will snap
[02:55:17] <nbf> it'd probably be easier if I drew a diagram
[02:55:19] <lexn82> nbf: is there anythign renderer does not interpolate
[02:55:28] <lexn82> lets say you have a transformation matrix
[02:55:32] <ra4king> damn i keep dying in BF3
[02:56:19] <nbf> a transformation matrix would most likely be interpolated for smooth motion
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[02:56:51] <nbf> since you render at frame rate x but update far less frequently (say 20 times a second)
[02:57:11] <lexn82> so, all your properties are managed somehow?
[02:57:30] <lexn82> that's pretty complicated
[02:57:38] <nbf> they're all encapsulated in the update state
[02:58:13] <lexn82> so then you simply lock parts of the update state as you update it
[02:58:21] <lexn82> so rendere would have to wait, if its locked
[02:58:26] <lexn82> but the contention is low
[02:58:28] <lexn82> right?
[02:58:29] <nbf> no, you update it and only lock when you need to change the references
[02:58:41] <nbf> do while the actual update is performance, the renderer is chugging away
[02:58:47] <nbf> *is performed
[02:59:05] <nbf> but when you're done, and need to apply the update, you lock
[02:59:14] <lexn82> got it
[02:59:20] <nbf> but you lock and just swap references, so it's relatively fast and cheap
[02:59:26] <nbf> I usually use a read write lock
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[02:59:46] <nbf> so the renderer acquires read locks and the update thread grabs write locks
[02:59:59] <lexn82> what about animation?
[03:00:00] <nbf> which makes sense given the architecture (this is basically what RWLocks were created for)
[03:00:34] <lexn82> do you update it every frame, or in the main body of slower update thread
[03:01:00] <nbf> well you update the animation values in the update thread, but the renderer interpolates between them
[03:01:05] <nbf> so it's like keyframe interpolation
[03:01:17] <nbf> frame1 < t < frame 2
[03:01:36] <nbf> so the renderer create the smooth animation in the renderer thread
[03:01:41] <lexn82> so you would interpolate an entire mesh?
[03:02:16] <nbf> if you were doing like morph targets, yep
[03:02:27] <lexn82> i mean like character walking
[03:02:40] <nbf> well character walking is just going to be the armature/skeleton
[03:02:50] <lexn82> so you do it on the gpu anyway
[03:02:52] <nbf> so you compute the skeleton for frame1 and frame2 and interpolate between them
[03:02:55] <nbf> yeah
[03:03:11] <lexn82> interesting approach
[03:04:11] <lexn82> would this architecture allow users to add their own properties?
[03:05:10] <lexn82> also, when do you poll user controls?
[03:05:21] <nbf> yeah because all it knows about is the state encapsulation, whats inside that and how the renderer uses it isn't a concern
[03:05:47] <nbf> that stuff happens inside it's own respective threads, so it removes concurrency from the equation
[03:05:52] <nbf> which makes it way easier to grok
[03:06:17] <lexn82> this is entirely different from what i had in mind
[03:06:23] <lexn82> fascinating
[03:06:28] <ra4king> retarded noob toobs are retarded
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[03:32:22] <davedes> MatthiasM - you there? any ideas how to get JSquish working with RGB decompression as opposed to RGBA?
[03:32:29] <davedes> for RGB_DXT1
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[04:16:30] <lwjglbot> lwjglforum: Re: Jumping <http://lwjgl.org/forum/index.php/topic,4588.msg24617.html#msg24617> || Re: [RFE] getTime/getDelta <http://lwjgl.org/forum/index.php/topic,4572.msg24616.html#msg24616>
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[04:19:25] <l3eta> davedes he's sleeping he has work tomorrow
[04:19:41] <davedes> ya figured..
[04:19:53] <l3eta> Figured I'd let ya know :P
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[04:35:17] <ra4king> f life
[04:35:20] <ra4king> f it all
[04:35:23] <ra4king> im never playing BF3 again
[04:35:47] <ra4king> i just saw a post....seems like almost every server has at least one hacker
[04:36:10] <ra4king> which explains everything really.....ive always blamed BF3 for glitches and bugs in unbelievable deaths......but it's too obvious
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[10:47:16] <lwjglbot> lwjglforum: Re: Jumping <http://lwjgl.org/forum/index.php/topic,4588.msg24618.html#msg24618>
[11:17:18] <lwjglbot> lwjglforum: Re: [RFE] getTime/getDelta <http://lwjgl.org/forum/index.php/topic,4572.msg24619.html#msg24619>
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