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[04:03:10] <drhead> Is anything going to be done to the BitTorrent protocol to help protect against data stream poisoning?
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[04:03:55] <TheSHAD0W> Still working on how it's being poisoned.
[04:04:37] <TheSHAD0W> Can't tell whether it can be fixed using a bit of logic, or whether it's a flaw in the design of uTP.
[04:06:23] <drhead> Couldn't a hash of each piece be made to verify integrity?
[04:06:37] <TheSHAD0W> That's not the problem.
[04:06:45] <TheSHAD0W> And integrity is already checked.
[04:07:29] <TheSHAD0W> Actually, I misspoke; BT is immune to *poisoning*.  It's being DoS'd.
[04:08:01] <TheSHAD0W> I don't think DHT is being poisoned, but it's possible.
[04:08:27] <The_8473> would need an affected swarm to analyse it anyway.
[04:08:53] <drhead> i know cert found some russian movies that were heavily infected
[04:09:07] <TheSHAD0W> That's an entirely different problem.
[04:09:54] <TheSHAD0W> If you can trust the source of the torrent file, you can trust the payload.  If you can't, you can't.  It's that simple, and there's no way to fix it.
[04:10:51] <drhead> this was an issue with some company 'protecting' the film from what I understand, sending fake data
[04:11:11] <TheSHAD0W> Fake data is rejected, period.
[04:11:22] <The_8473> drhead, have you seen the problem yourself?
[04:11:36] <drhead> http://www.cert.pl/news/5365/langswitch_lang/en
[04:11:42] <drhead> this is what I am viewing
[04:11:42] <DeHackEd> you'd need a botnet for that to be remotely effective
[04:11:51] <The_8473> so you're just regurgitating news
[04:12:19] <DWKnight> news that has been around the world about 4-5 times already
[04:12:35] <TheSHAD0W> Seen that, already forwarded it to Bram (if he hadn't already gotten it).
[04:12:50] <TheSHAD0W> And that still can't poison the torrent payload.
[04:12:50] <DeHackEd> had to believe he hasn't by now...
[04:13:00] <TheSHAD0W> Well, this was yesterday.
[04:13:08] <The_8473> and it just affects µTP, which can be turned off
[04:13:38] <drhead> but im wondering if this problem is likely to be widespread
[04:13:46] <TheSHAD0W> I'm not even sure they're right about it being uTP.  Looks more like it's DHT related, unless it's PEX.
[04:13:50] <The_8473> <The_8473> drhead, have you seen the problem yourself? <-
[04:13:55] <TheSHAD0W> 5.2. Anomaly effects.
[04:13:55] <TheSHAD0W> 5.2.1. Transmissions’ purpose is uTP/BT network poisoning
[04:13:55] <TheSHAD0W> According to data collected from publicly available trackers seeders to peers ratio of torrents containing hash 057a315b89b54e53e2ee583dd5cd9ef60648805e and other hashes corresponding to film “Avgust. Vosmogo” is uncommon and can be a result of poisoning uTP/BT network elements (e.g. by distributing forged data about peers – series of zeroes).
[04:14:06] <The_8473> if you haven't noticed it yourself, it probably isn't widespread
[04:14:48] <drhead> but does it have the potential to become a significant problem for bittorrent users
[04:14:51] <DeHackEd> horray, tracker-based torrents are making a comeback!  (joke)
[04:15:08] <drhead> or will the problem be fixed before it becomes a problem
[04:15:30] <The_8473> it will be fixed when we actually know what the problem is
[04:21:57] <TheSHAD0W> Why are people being so alarmist about this?
[04:23:15] <DWKnight> "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals"
[04:24:13] <DWKnight> </moviequote>
[04:24:19] <DeHackEd> MiB ?
[04:24:52] <DWKnight> yup
[04:34:04] <drhead> it just seems to us that the mpaa is hellbent on killing bittorrent
[04:34:48] <DWKnight> because it, as well as applications like it, make it more and more painfully aware of their irrelevance in the current market
[04:34:50] <drhead> and actually seems to have no clue that it is trying to do something that cant be done
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[05:19:40] <PhearTheCeal> So
[05:19:49] <PhearTheCeal> Could someone please explain magnet links to me like I'm an idiot?
[05:20:22] <DeHackEd> you use the info_hash in the magnet to use DHT to find peers. you ask a peer for the .torrent file. you join as normal
[05:20:29] <DeHackEd> any extra data in the magnet URL is a bonus
[05:22:15] <PhearTheCeal> DHT?
[05:22:27] <DeHackEd> I'm gonna be here a while
[05:22:31] <DeHackEd> trackerless mode
[05:23:19] <PhearTheCeal> So a tracker helps initiate a download, right?
[05:23:44] <DeHackEd> now we're getting into more fundamental stuff with how bittorrent works
[05:24:27] <PhearTheCeal> I know
[05:24:32] <PhearTheCeal> But I've never really known
[05:24:38] <PhearTheCeal> And the wikipedia articles are dense
[05:24:59] <DeHackEd> yeah. distributed hash table (DHT) is a bit to digest
[05:26:11] <DeHackEd> to join a swarm all you really need is a tracker (or indication to go trackerless/DHT) and the info_hash
[05:26:29] <DeHackEd> the latter is normally calculated out of a .torrent file. magnet links instead provide the info_hash straight up and imply "go find the .torrent file yourself"
[05:27:48] <PhearTheCeal> So how does the client know where to look for the .torrent file without a tracker?
[05:28:05] <DeHackEd> same way it finds peers with a .torrent file but without a tracker: DHT
[05:28:13] <PhearTheCeal> Is this where the DHT wizardy comes in?
[05:29:16] <DeHackEd> yep
[05:30:14] <PhearTheCeal> ok
[05:31:15] <PhearTheCeal> And why do you need the .torrent if you have the info_hash?
[05:31:18] <PhearTheCeal> What is the info_hash?
[05:31:37] <DeHackEd> the info_hash is a checksum of part of the torrent. specifically the bit that contains file data
[05:32:03] <DeHackEd> the file data includes checksums of the file(s) to be downloaded, a file listing itself, and a few other important things
[05:32:54] <PhearTheCeal> Oh, so it is just for integrity checks or checking to make sure you're downloading the right files
[05:35:20] <PhearTheCeal> hmm...
[05:35:37] <K`Tetch_> hmm, I guress I'm REALLY going to have to finish that 'introduction to magnet links' video
[05:36:10] <PhearTheCeal> A a .torrent file could be trackerless?
[05:36:31] <DeHackEd> K`Tetch_: in the style of Zero Punctuation please?
[05:37:01] <DeHackEd> (parental warning: coarse language if you plan on googling for ZP)
[05:38:05] <PhearTheCeal> I wasn't aware that people under 18 used IC
[05:38:09] <PhearTheCeal> *IRC
[05:38:35] <DeHackEd> http://bash.org/?14207
[05:38:38] <DeHackEd> qed
[05:39:24] <PhearTheCeal> Classic
[05:39:32] <PhearTheCeal> Actually the whole archive is classic
[05:40:00] <PhearTheCeal> Wow, it's getting old
[05:40:42] <K`Tetch_> well, yes, I DID start using IRC when I was under 18, but that was a decade or two ago...
[05:40:50] <PhearTheCeal> heh heh
[05:41:02] <PhearTheCeal> So, have you guys heard of CJDNS?
[05:41:24] <K`Tetch_> DeHackEd - I hate recording audio (and this would probably be my last week to do anyway, as this is the last week of school)
[05:41:28] <DeHackEd> no but I will in a moment
[05:42:00] <DeHackEd> what the heck is that?
[05:42:23] <K`Tetch_> so if anyone wants to give me some help writing a script or at least giving me some points i should hit (and some sort of order) it would be appreciated
[05:42:38] <DeHackEd> K`Tetch_: how much are you assuming the user already knows?
[05:42:52] <K`Tetch_> I dunno
[05:43:01] <K`Tetch_> I could go from 'normal user', I could go from bare basics
[05:43:05] <K`Tetch_> I could do both if need be
[05:43:12] <DeHackEd> can I assume people know what a hash function is? (Say SHA1 is a hash function and leave it at that)
[05:43:22] <K`Tetch_> can do
[05:43:40] * K`Tetch_ had to write a bare-basics deposition about 2 months ago, was NOT fun
[05:44:14] <K`Tetch_> took almost a week
[05:45:24] <PhearTheCeal> https://github.com/cjdelisle/cjdns/blob/master/rfcs/Whitepaper.md
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[05:50:23] <PhearTheCeal> And here is an interview with the CJDNS creator: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zINQYkl01N8
[05:54:31] <DeHackEd> ... they used bencoding?
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[05:56:42] <PhearTheCeal> well, it _is_ p2p
[05:58:59] <PhearTheCeal> so yes
[05:59:03] <PhearTheCeal> Why?
[05:59:32] <DeHackEd> becoding was invented for bittorrent not for any particular reason other than wanting a serialization format
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[06:02:14] <PhearTheCeal> well, according to their IRC mod
[06:02:28] <PhearTheCeal> It is a balance between human-readable and machine-readable
[06:02:36] <PhearTheCeal> and there is a library for reading it in every language
[06:03:07] <PhearTheCeal> He says they use it for the same reason bittorrent uses it :P
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[06:08:26] <DeHackEd> it's an interesting idea, but my first reaction is "good luck replacing the current internet"
[06:09:27] <PhearTheCeal> Ha, no doubt
[06:10:12] <PhearTheCeal> I'm sure some tech companies would be willing to set up their servers on it if there was a demand for it
[06:10:28] <DeHackEd> so it's an overlay network to the current internet?
[06:13:14] <PhearTheCeal> it's generic, it can be and in this case it is. It can also be used without the internet
[06:13:34] <PhearTheCeal> I guess overlay makes sense right now, to test stuff
[06:22:53] <PhearTheCeal> DeHackEd: So, whatcha think?
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